Jump to the best parts:

• (08:13) → The biggest shift in search since Google’s Panda algorithm updates

• (11:51) → How early-stage startups can start appearing in AI answers almost instantly

• (14:34) → Why traffic from ChatGPT converts dramatically better than from Google search

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Great Question—Empower everyone to run great research

Ethan Smith is the CEO of Graphite—the leading SEO growth agency—and my go-to expert on SEO. After 18 years of mastering traditional SEO, Ethan has been at the forefront of what is called AEO: answer engine optimization, or, more simply, getting your product to show up in ChatGPT/Claude/Gemini/Perplexity answers. He’s discovered that ChatGPT traffic converts six times better than Google search—and most companies are completely missing this opportunity.

In our conversation, we discuss:

1. His 7-step playbook to rank #1 in ChatGPT

2. Why ChatGPT traffic converts 6x better than Google

3. How early-stage startups can win at AEO immediately (unlike with SEO, which takes years)

4. The three tactics that actually work: landing pages, YouTube videos, and Reddit comments

5. Why help-center content can suddenly be your highest-ROI investment

6. The specific Reddit strategy that works (spoiler: be authentic)

7. Why AI-generated content doesn’t work

Where to find Ethan Smith:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ethan_l_s

• LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ethans-linkedin

• Graphite: https://graphite.io/

• Graphite Research Papers: https://bit.ly/graphite-five-percent

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Welcome back, Ethan

(04:34) The changing landscape of SEO

(06:19) AEO (answer engine optimization) vs. GEO (generative engine optimization)

(08:13) The impact of AEO

(11:51) How early-stage startups can win at AEO

(14:34) The quality of AEO leads

(15:35) On-site vs. off-site traffic

(16:32) Reddit’s role in AEO and avoiding spam

(20:11) How AI models use citations (RAG)

(21:41) Key principles for winning at AEO

(25:00) Avoiding hyper-SEOed content, and the importance of originality

(28:55) Actionable AEO playbook: steps and experiments

(33:35) Tracking, measuring, and share of voice

(38:34) Adapting AEO for B2B, commerce, and early-stage companies

(41:11) Is letting AI index your content good?

(43:06) Experimentation, control groups, and measuring results

(46:15) The future of AEO, SEO, and search channels

(51:35) AI-generated content: what works and what doesn’t

(55:25) The dangers of infinite AI derivatives

(58:44) The future: convergence of LLMs and search

(01:00:40) Help-center optimization and the long tail

(01:03:18) Lightning round and final thoughts

Referenced:

• AEO Tools: https://bit.ly/graphite-aeo-tool

• The ultimate guide to SEO | Ethan Smith (Graphite): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-seo-ethan-smith

• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest-growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley

• Webflow: https://webflow.com/

• YouTube: https://youtube.com/

• Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/

• Quora: https://www.quora.com/

• An inside look at Deel’s unprecedented growth | Meltem Kuran Berkowitz (Head of Growth): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-deels-unprecedented

• Dotdash Meredith: https://www.people.inc/

• Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/

• Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/

• Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai/

• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/

• ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/

• Claude: https://claude.ai/

• TechRadar: https://www.techradar.com/

• Yelp: https://www.yelp.com

• Tripadvisor: https://www.tripadvisor.com/

• TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/

• Why ChatGPT will be the next big growth channel (and how to capitalize on it) | Brian Balfour (Reforge): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-chatgpt-will-be-the-next-big-growth-channel-brian-balfour

• AI SEO: Latest Market Intelligence & Landscape Analysis—Summer Sessions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm589PmhIOY

• AI Content Study: https://bit.ly/ai-content-white-paper

• Free AI detector: https://surferseo.com/ai-content-detector/

• Common Crawl: https://commoncrawl.org/

• AI models collapse when trained on recursively generated data: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07566-y

• Looker: https://cloud.google.com/looker/

• Otter: https://otter.ai/

• Zapier: https://zapier.com/

• Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/

• Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/

• The Last Dance on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80203144

• 30 for 30: Lance on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81753677

• Free Solo on National Geographic: https://films.nationalgeographic.com/free-solo

• Sony mirrorless cameras: https://electronics.sony.com/compact-mirrorless-cameras

• What Is Butter Lettuce? Plus, a Simple Butter Lettuce Salad Recipe: https://www.masterclass.com/articles/what-is-butter-lettuce-plus-a-simple-butter-lettuce-salad-recipe

• Bryan Johnson on X: https://x.com/bryan_johnson

Recommended books:

• Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ: https://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Intelligence-Matter-More-Than/dp/055338371X

• Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion: https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Robert-Cialdini/dp/006124189X

• Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555

• How to Measure Anything: Finding the Value of Intangibles in Business: https://www.amazon.com/How-Measure-Anything-Intangibles-Business/dp/1118539273

• Outliers: The Story of Success: https://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0316017930

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

My biggest takeaways from this conversation:...