Eric Ries is the author of The Lean Startup, a book that reshaped how a generation of founders think about building companies. His new book, Incorruptible, explains how successful companies are destroyed by failing to protect what makes them valuable, and how to change it.

In our in-depth conversation, we discuss:

1. Why 80% of venture-backed founders are ousted within three years of going public

2. The governance structures that protect companies like Anthropic, Costco, and Novo Nordisk

3. The simple legal filing that takes two pages and could save your company

4. Financial gravity: why successful companies predictably get corrupted into mediocrity

5. Why mission-aligned companies like Anthropic reap major benefits from protecting their mission through governance

6. Why success won’t protect you—it instead makes you a bigger target

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Where to find Eric Ries:

• X: https://x.com/ericries

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries

• Website: https://www.incorruptible.co

• Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://news.theleanstartup.com/

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://ericriesshow.com

• YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Referenced:

• Reflections on a movement | Eric Ries (creator of the Lean Startup methodology): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/reflections-on-a-movement-eric-ries

• How Anthropic’s product team moves faster than anyone else | Cat Wu (Head of Product, Claude Code): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-anthropics-product-team-moves

• Quibi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quibi

• Vital Farms: https://vitalfarms.com

• BlackRock: https://www.blackrock.com

• Costco: https://www.costco.com

• Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com

• “The best time to plant a tree” quote: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/12/29/plant-tree

• Whole Foods: http://wholefoodsmarket.com

• Marie Krogh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Krogh

• August Krogh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Krogh

• Martin Shkreli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli

• Novo Nordisk: https://www.novonordisk.com

• Zeiss: https://www.zeiss.com

• Philip Morris: https://www.philipmorrisusa.com

• Vectura: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vectura

• Matthew Prince on X: https://x.com/eastdakota

• “AI Will Break the Internet”—Cloudflare CEO’s Big Prediction: https://www.ericriesshow.com/matthew-prince-ai

• Andrew Mason on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmason

• Groupon: https://www.groupon.com

• Steve Jobs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs

• Yvon Chouinard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvon_Chouinard

• Patagonia: https://www.patagonia.com

• Unilever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilever

• Johnson & Johnson: https://www.jnj.com

• Peter Drucker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker

• How the Former U.S. CTO Built a $3B Healthcare Company Powered by Love | Todd Park: https://www.ericriesshow.com/how-the-former-us-cto-built-a-3b-healthcare-company-powered-by-love-todd-park

• Devoted Health: https://www.devoted.com

• Don’t be evil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil

• Silicon Valley on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/shows/silicon-valley/b4583939-e39f-4b5c-822d-5b6cc186172d

• Adam Smith: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

• Understanding public benefit corporations: Profit with a purpose: https://www.britannica.com/money/what-is-a-public-benefit-corporation

• B Corp: https://www.bcorporation.net

• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com

• Clayton Christensen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Christensen

• Howard Schultz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/howardschultz

• HEB: https://www.heb.com

• Mary Parker Follett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Parker_Follett

• Elon Musk on X: https://x.com/elonmusk

• Sam Altman on X: https://x.com/sama

• Dario Amodei on X: https://x.com/DarioAmodei

• Daniela Amodei on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniela-amodei-790bb22a

• Kobayashi Maru: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru

• Mark Zuckerberg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg

• Larry Page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Page

• Sergey Brin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin

• Rome Conference on AI, Ethics, and Governance: https://romeai.wsgrevents.com

• OpenAI: https://openai.com

• Cohere: https://www.coherehealth.com

• Palantir: https://www.palantir.com

• John Lewis & Partners: https://www.johnlewis.com/

• Mondragon: https://mondragon-corporation.com

• Alibaba: https://www.alibaba.com

• What is Evergreen?: https://www.tugboatinstitute.com/what-is-evergreen

• Berkshire Hathaway: https://www.berkshirehathaway.com

• Conway’s law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law

• Ants vs. humans: Solving the piano-mover puzzle: https://arstechnica.com/science/2025/01/ants-vs-humans-solving-the-piano-mover-puzzle

• Frederick Winslow Taylor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Winslow_Taylor

• The Principles of Scientific Management (1911): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Principles_of_Scientific_Management

• Rowntree’s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowntree%27s

Recommended books:

• The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898

• Incorruptible: Why Good Companies Go Bad... and How Great Companies Stay Great: https://www.amazon.com/Incorruptible-Good-Companies-Great-Stay/dp/B0FWZZBPZB

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

My biggest takeaways from this conversation:...