Nicole Forsgren created the most widely used frameworks for measuring developer productivity—DORA and SPACE. She wrote the foundational book Accelerate and is about to release her newest book, Frictionless, a practical guide for helping teams move faster in the AI era. She’s currently Senior Director of Developer Intelligence at Google.

We discuss:

1. Why most productivity metrics are a lie [12:02]

2. Signs that your engineering team could be moving much faster [26:49]

3. Why AI accelerates coding but developers aren’t speeding up as much as you think [33:32]

4. AI’s impact on engineers getting into “flow” [08:33]

5. Her framework for building and scaling a developer experience team [36:35]

6. The three components of developer experience: flow state, cognitive load, and feedback loops [09:06]

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Where to find Nicole Forsgren:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nicolefv

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolefv/

• Website: https://nicolefv.com/

Referenced:

• How to measure and improve developer productivity | Nicole Forsgren (Microsoft Research, GitHub, Google): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer

• DORA: https://dora.dev/

• The SPACE framework: A comprehensive guide to developer productivity: https://getdx.com/blog/space-metrics/

• Measuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4: https://getdx.com/research/measuring-developer-productivity-with-the-dx-core-4/

• Gloria Mark’s website: https://gloriamark.com/

• Taking Flight with Copilot: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3589996

• DevEx in Action: https://spawn-queue.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3639443

• CodeX: https://openai.com/codex/

• Devin: https://devin.ai/

• Abi Noda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abinoda/

• DX is joining Atlassian: https://getdx.com/blog/dx-is-joining-atlassian/

• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot

• Cursor: https://cursor.com/

• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell

• Gemini Code Assist: https://codeassist.google/

• Claude Code: https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code

• The AI-native startup: 5 products, 7-figure revenue, 100% AI-written code | Dan Shipper (co-founder/CEO of Every): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-every-dan-shipper

• Love Is Blind on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80996601

• Shrinking on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/shrinking/umc.cmc.apzybj6eqf6pzccd97kev7bs

• Ninja Creami: https://www.amazon.com/Ninja-NC301-CREAMi-Containers-Bundle/dp/B0BLGR5JPV/

• Jura coffee maker: https://www.amazon.com/Jura-Nordic-Automatic-Coffee-Machine/dp/B0CF65BFZ1/

Recommended books:

• Frictionless: https://developerexperiencebook.com/

• DevEx Workbook: https://developerexperiencebook.com/#workbook

• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599

• Back Mechanic: https://www.amazon.com/Back-Mechanic-Stuart-McGill-2015-09-30/dp/B01FKSGJYC

• How Big Things Get Done: The Surprising Factors That Determine the Fate of Every Project, from Home Renovations to Space Exploration and Everything in Between: https://www.amazon.com/How-Big-Things-Get-Done/dp/0593239512/

• The Undoing Project: A Friendship That Changed Our Minds: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KBM82M4/

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

My biggest takeaways from this conversation:...